Gino, thanks for writing this. I have always felt that our idealized expectations can be difficult to face. Especially when we don’t see others keeping their end of the expectation which they may or may not have known they needed to keep or had the capacity to keep. Whether it is community, marriage, or vocation/calling our “idea” and its corresponding expectations usually come face-to-face with reality. Reality in ourselves and others. My thought is every expectation or vision of how things “should be” must experience a death. So that what emerges, if we allow it, is something that looks less like us, and more like the Jesus we long to follow and serve.
Hope I am not too far off base from the point you were trying to make.
I think we are saying the same thing. And I probably didn’t say it as clearly as I could have. I agree not all our expectations are bad.
What you say here, “I specifically believe we need to interrogate our fantasies and have the good news of Jesus reorder our disorders desired”. Is my way of stating the death of that expectation. I think the deeper the disordered expectation the more challenging it is to reorder.
Also I would argue that part of the rub is the means we use to bring those expectations to reality. To me that is probably more where my thinking goes. In my mind there is no great way to bring to reality a great expectation without the death, burial and resurrection of that expectation.
Michael, Thanks for reading and commenting. I certainly understand what you are saying and have felt that too. Yes, I do believe there is a kind of death they may need to happen with our expectations but I think I would nuance it more (perhaps you would too)? I do not think all expectations are necessarily wrong, I specifically believe we need to interrogate our fantasies and have the good news of Jesus reorder our disorders desired. Without this work, we may be assuming our fantasy, desires, and expectations are truth. Now there may be some truth in these, but its worth holding up into the light.
A friend recently reminded me that disappointment occurs when expectations don't met reality. I appreciate your sensitivity expressed in wanting to see something more like Jesus take shape in our lives together.
Phew. So good! I think about that couple of page section from Life Together ALL the time. Not a Human Ideal but a Spiritual Reality. Thanks for sharing!
Thanks, @Barrett! I think about that quote a lot too. It has shaped so much of our church planting/community building around Jesus.
Part of the challenge I have struggled with is linking the spiritual reality to the expectations of human ideals. I think Bonhoeffer and Lacan are helpful in diagnosing the issue. Helping people walk that path (that I think require honesty and a form of death) is a painful joy. I have more to say in a future essay (or two). I hope you will stay tuned and interact with me.
So here’s a question: you write, “Many, many, many people, myself included, full-heartedly pursue a fantasy of community only to find it is bringing them more distress, conflict, and emptiness.” Can you articulate what the difference is between distress and conflict caused by pursuing a fantasy community and the distress and conflict that can arise when trying to invite/call people into the kind of community you are articulating? To me both can cause distress for different reasons.
Thanks for reading, commenting, and asking this important question. So insightful of you to pick that up.
You are spot on recognizing that there can be distress in both pursuit of the community centered on Jesus in love and pursuing the community of our own fantasy. Both can be distressing and often times there might feel like a line is crossed in inviting people to deny themselves. Meaning, many people are rightly seeking to protect themselves from abuses of power.
The question I think about is are we creating brave spaces where people can share their desires with others in community? Then, are those desires not shamed or judged but met with curiosity and submitted to Christ. Of course, to do this requires a measure of trust and participation that might be uncomfortable for some (many?), but I do not see another way forward then seeking to be the kind of community that learns to be truth-tellers.
In my experience, presence and participation are strong indicators of whether our communities are helping someone investigate their desires or not. While an imperfect measure, it is an indicator. We have had a number of people clearly name what they want from a church community and it not be compatible with what we offer. While this is sad, we appreciate the clarity and bless people as they go.
Looks like I have much to say on this but I'll pause and see if I am addressing your thoughts or not. :)
Yes I think you address some of it. I think I’m wondering about presence and participation and what you mean by those terms? I think I can guess, but if not now in the comments perhaps another essay could help unpack those indicators a bit more?
Yes, defining presence and participation, or perhaps quantifying it in our context is of value to this conversation. Looks like you've given me the basis for another essay. Thanks, Andrew!
Gino, thanks for writing this. I have always felt that our idealized expectations can be difficult to face. Especially when we don’t see others keeping their end of the expectation which they may or may not have known they needed to keep or had the capacity to keep. Whether it is community, marriage, or vocation/calling our “idea” and its corresponding expectations usually come face-to-face with reality. Reality in ourselves and others. My thought is every expectation or vision of how things “should be” must experience a death. So that what emerges, if we allow it, is something that looks less like us, and more like the Jesus we long to follow and serve.
Hope I am not too far off base from the point you were trying to make.
I think we are saying the same thing. And I probably didn’t say it as clearly as I could have. I agree not all our expectations are bad.
What you say here, “I specifically believe we need to interrogate our fantasies and have the good news of Jesus reorder our disorders desired”. Is my way of stating the death of that expectation. I think the deeper the disordered expectation the more challenging it is to reorder.
Also I would argue that part of the rub is the means we use to bring those expectations to reality. To me that is probably more where my thinking goes. In my mind there is no great way to bring to reality a great expectation without the death, burial and resurrection of that expectation.
BTW love the conversation.
Michael, Thanks for reading and commenting. I certainly understand what you are saying and have felt that too. Yes, I do believe there is a kind of death they may need to happen with our expectations but I think I would nuance it more (perhaps you would too)? I do not think all expectations are necessarily wrong, I specifically believe we need to interrogate our fantasies and have the good news of Jesus reorder our disorders desired. Without this work, we may be assuming our fantasy, desires, and expectations are truth. Now there may be some truth in these, but its worth holding up into the light.
A friend recently reminded me that disappointment occurs when expectations don't met reality. I appreciate your sensitivity expressed in wanting to see something more like Jesus take shape in our lives together.
Phew. So good! I think about that couple of page section from Life Together ALL the time. Not a Human Ideal but a Spiritual Reality. Thanks for sharing!
Thanks, @Barrett! I think about that quote a lot too. It has shaped so much of our church planting/community building around Jesus.
Part of the challenge I have struggled with is linking the spiritual reality to the expectations of human ideals. I think Bonhoeffer and Lacan are helpful in diagnosing the issue. Helping people walk that path (that I think require honesty and a form of death) is a painful joy. I have more to say in a future essay (or two). I hope you will stay tuned and interact with me.
Thank you
Absolutely! Thank you for reading.
So here’s a question: you write, “Many, many, many people, myself included, full-heartedly pursue a fantasy of community only to find it is bringing them more distress, conflict, and emptiness.” Can you articulate what the difference is between distress and conflict caused by pursuing a fantasy community and the distress and conflict that can arise when trying to invite/call people into the kind of community you are articulating? To me both can cause distress for different reasons.
Thanks for this fantastic essay Gino!
Thanks for reading, commenting, and asking this important question. So insightful of you to pick that up.
You are spot on recognizing that there can be distress in both pursuit of the community centered on Jesus in love and pursuing the community of our own fantasy. Both can be distressing and often times there might feel like a line is crossed in inviting people to deny themselves. Meaning, many people are rightly seeking to protect themselves from abuses of power.
The question I think about is are we creating brave spaces where people can share their desires with others in community? Then, are those desires not shamed or judged but met with curiosity and submitted to Christ. Of course, to do this requires a measure of trust and participation that might be uncomfortable for some (many?), but I do not see another way forward then seeking to be the kind of community that learns to be truth-tellers.
In my experience, presence and participation are strong indicators of whether our communities are helping someone investigate their desires or not. While an imperfect measure, it is an indicator. We have had a number of people clearly name what they want from a church community and it not be compatible with what we offer. While this is sad, we appreciate the clarity and bless people as they go.
Looks like I have much to say on this but I'll pause and see if I am addressing your thoughts or not. :)
Yes I think you address some of it. I think I’m wondering about presence and participation and what you mean by those terms? I think I can guess, but if not now in the comments perhaps another essay could help unpack those indicators a bit more?
Yes, defining presence and participation, or perhaps quantifying it in our context is of value to this conversation. Looks like you've given me the basis for another essay. Thanks, Andrew!
You’re welcome 😆